Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 14:59
PART-1--MY INTERPRETATION OF "BOYS FOR PELE" CD - AS A TOTAL CONCPET PIECE
In keeping my promise to Aveallen - to do a Post on this site - offering My Interpretation of the "Boy's For Pele" CD, the following is hereby presented: (I also want to acknowledge Aveallen, who inspired this, and provided input, as well)
First of all, I agree that there is no way one can simply listen to any one of the songs, and derive a connection, by itself, as to what that song, or CD is truly about. It would be like attempting to take a single individual piece of a jigsaw puzzle and then trying to determine what the entire puzzle looks like. It simply can not be done. The same is true of "Boy's For Pele."
While I agree with Aveallen this is about a Murder and subsequent Court case, AND NOT JUST ABOUT THE LEGEND OF THE GODDESS OF THE PELE VOCANO IN HAWAII - although I Do Believe the title of the CD, was inspired by that - I would argue that the concept does not even come close to ending there. (That too, is but one facet - Several Pieces out of many, of the overall concept - it is actually far more encompassing than that, in my judgment.)
First of all, you do have the "Beauty Queen" Being identified as - and through - the song entitled 'Marianne - the one who is murdered ; although the murder is attempted to look like suicide. In Marianne” we see the lines: “they said Marianne Killed Herself, and I said not a chance.” In “Beauty Queen, we then see: “She’s a Beauty Queen. My Sweet BEAN Bag In The Street.” (Dead in the Street) In “Little Amsterdam” we see another reference to this in the Lines: “They Buried Her with a Butter BEAN bouquet.” In Mr. Zebra, we see the lines: “Too Bad The Burial Was Premature, she said.”
”However, a closer examination will also revealed Marianne Got Raped first, and later, Murdered. Blood Roses further serves to elaborate on that theme: (i.e., 'You gave him your blood and your warm little diamond (Vagina) – BEING RAPED – Felt as though she was dead . (“HE LIKES KILLING YOU AFTER YOU'RE DEAD.") – Thun, she is later Murdered. We see another clue to the Rape in Talula, where she says: “What you want is IN THE BLOOD Senators.” She was a Raped Virgin. Thus, the Blood in the Broken Hymen, will have traces of DNA in it. Also in Talula, we see another hint of the Rape in the lines: “That it’s in God’s Hands. But I don’t know WHO THE FATHER IS.” Thus, a dead partially formed Baby is discovered in the Womb of the Murdered Victim.” You also see where she is saying the victim has "cut out the flute (Male Sex Organ) from the throat of the loon. (Loon, being the murderer.) Thus, now that she has passed away, she has permanently cut out any connectivity to both the "flute" and the 'loon."
We see another hint of this, when her spirit cries out, but “He can't even hear her.” (Since she is now in the Nether World.) In Little Amsterdam, we find evidence of a murder: "Momma, it wasn't my bullet" also in “Muhammad, My Friend,” we again see this, where it states "We both know it was a girl back in Bethlehem," and "ON THAT FATEFUL DAY, WHEN SHE WAS CRUCIFIED.." In Professional Widow, we see the lines "Don't blow those brains out yet…" In "Putting The Damage On" we see the lines, "It's just your GHOST Passing Through…" In Talula, we see a hint of this, in the lines ""Ran into the Henchman who servered Anne Boleyn." (NOTE: Anne Boleyn was one of the wives of Henry The 8th WHO HAD HER HEAD CUT OFF.)" We also clearly see the "Beauty Queen" speaking from the grave where she says: "If there is a way to find you, I will find you. But you will find me, if Neil makes me a tree." (I also see a forerunner of this song to a later song, entitled "The Bee Keeper) Another very subtle reference to a death/murder can be found in the lines: "Maybe together, we'll make mother well. In Father Lucifer, we see the lines: “Does Joe Bring Flowers To Marilyn’s Grave.”
I would also agree that "Caught A Little Sneeze" coupled with 'Mr. Zebra" (who I believe functions as an Attorney) - is depicting a "Court Case on that Murder. In Fact, we see her informing Mr. Zebra, so to speak that she can pay his fee, in the Lines: She’s got a little FUND TO FIGHT FOR MONEYPENNY’S RIGHTS.” Also, see the lines from “Caught A Little Sneeze” which state: “Boys On My Right, Boys On My Left, Boys In The Middle” (The Jury) In the Follow-up “But You’re Not Here, I Need A Big Loan From The Girl Zone” we see her wishing the victim, who is not there (Dead) could be loaned from the Dead to Testify and clear her name. We also see in “Hey Jupiter” another reference to the Court Case in the Line: “She’s Ready To Confess.”
MORE TO COME IN PART-2
:)
Steve B.
Replies for this Forum Topic
Hello Cindy!
Now I understand. You are correct that politicians are exceptional at taking small pieces of statements and intentionally miscontsruing them; to cause intentional harm, where none existed.
Clearly this was not my intention. Certainly no harm is meant by what I put forth. If anything, it is to show the ture depth and range of Tori's Genius!!
Therefore, to engage in this debate, I will begin by saying that I actually do believe, in BFP, she was conveying numerous messages - in her individuals songs - as well as alluding to the Pele Goddess Legend.
I ALSO TRULY BELIEVE THAT SHE WAS INSPIRED TO ALSO CREATE A MASTERPEICE BY INTERWEAVING AN EXTRAORDINARILY BRILLIANT, BUT HIDDEN, MYSTERY FOR HER FANS TO DISCOVER OVER TIME!
As Aveallan said, there are simply far too many coincidences for that not to be the case. I do believe that strange coincidences can certainly occur. However, as I re-examined (CAREFULLY LISTENED) to that CD, with an intense focus to ascertain whether or not this existed, I JUST SAW FAR TOOOOOO MANY CONNECTIONS, for that to be ignored.
However, notwithstanding the above, I am not so locked into my position, that I don't recognize the possiblility I could be totally wrong. (I certainly could be.) I will say, however, that based on the unusual number of connections contained therein; I am basically 95% certain that she did in fact actually have that in mind when she made it.
To address your other remarks concerning Pastor Wright, I'm afraid that time has not been good for that argument of those only being soundbites. First of, he made them again, just 3-weeks ago. EVEN OBAMA HAS NOW COME OUT AND TOTALLY DENOUNCED HIM. FOR THIS - In a far stronger and more definitive manner that he did the frist time in his speech in Philadelphia.
Secondly, although I am not a fan of Sean Hannity at all, I SAW A PROGRAM WHERE HE ACTUALLY SPENT OVER AN HOUR AIRING THE ENTIRETY OF HIS SERMON, WHERE THOSE HORRIBLE ANTI-AMERICAN SOUNDBITES CAME FROM. When you hear it in Context, IT IS FAR WORSE, believe it or not.
As for me, I have been for Hillary Clinton, seeing her as the most competent, experienced, and overall best candidate. HOWEVER, NOW THAT MY OWN STATE (NC) HAS DECIDED TO DUMP HER, I am afraid that it's all over for Hillary.
I believe that many of the Newsmedia types (such as Chris Matthews, Keith Oberman, Dan Abrahms, Scott Tucker, Joe Scarborough, Chris Wallace, Bill O'reilly Sean Hannity, and a host of others are simply Pushing Obama, because their Petty Little Male Egos can stand to see a Woman Get that Job.
I also think the reason Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Govern Richards from New Mexico, Chris Dodd, Senator Biden, Along with a host of others are motivated by the fact that their Petty Little Male Ego's cant stand to see a Woman get something they could not get themselves.)
Finally, I think Nancy Pelosi, is favoring Obama, because her Ego, can't stand the idea of another Woman having a more powerful position than her. (As speaker of the house, she occupies a very powerful position; which has never been previously held by a woman.)
I think Ophra is simply siding with Obama, because it is the African American's first opportunity to have a real chance for the White House. I certainly can not blame her, or The African American Community for that - It is fully understandable - I am surprised, however, that same sentiment does not exist with the Female Population regarding Hillary.)
In my lifetime, I have seen Men, be they White, African American,etc., get selected for Managerial Positions over Women, who had far Superior Cedtials/Qaulifications on their resume. I ALWAYS FELT THAT WAS WRONG. So, I am not totally surprised to see a Male, WITH A VERY WEAK RESUME (Obama) get nominated over a Woman who Credtials (Resume) are also far superior. If she were able to file an EEO, she would win her case hands down.
I also saw something, that frightended me for this country. I saw where, serveral young College Females (White, African American, etc...) were approached by the media and asked who they were for. When they said Obama, they were then asked why. All of them gave answers like (Oh, he's so hot. He's young like us, etc...) In one such response, a follow-up question was asked: "Is thtat a good reason to select someone for President? The answer was an amazing "Yes." they were then asked to name his accomplishments. They had to really struggle hard to come up with something. while, I am sure there are those who could name some, THE FACT THAT THESE PARTICULAR YOUNG COLLEGE STUDENTS COULD NOT, YET WERE STILL FOR HIM, DID NOT BODE WELL, IN MY JUDGEMENT.)
I will say the more tI saw newsmen, along with other Males who stood as Power-Figures in our politial environment, continue to dump on Hillary, the more I wanted her to prevail - especially to show up all of those Female Bigots. I also believe, she was this country's best chance for turning things around. However, inasmuch as the Country has opted to throw that away, it now leaves me with only one way left to go, in my judgment. OBAMA!
Even though we might disagree, being the lover of intellectual debate that I am, and believing all grow from such an exchange; I again want to state up front, that stating my political preference is in no way meant to offend anyone who might disagree. Hopefully, it will encourage others to come forth and state there reasons for disagreeing. I certainly reralize that I don't know everthing, and therefore can always be wrong.
Steve B
Offended? - Nah. I love Tori's music but I am not so wrapped up in her that I get offended by things people write or say about her. And I have thick skin, so it's difficult to offend me in general.
I have a professional and personal interest in the way people process and manipulate language and communications. You have selected certain words or lines, removed them from the context of the song and strung them together to create a whole new meaning for Pele that is, I would bet the house, not what Tori had intended. No big deal in this case - it was done for amusement or intellectual exercise.
But this process is used in ways that are not as innocent and can be more harmful. Just look at the presidential campaigns. Selected quotes or actions are taken out of context and used to create a new character that is not at all the real person. Karl Rove was a master at it. It's happening now most obviously with Rev. Jeremiah Wright. Select phrases are taken out of the context of his speech or sermon. They are also removed from his broader perspective of black liberation theology, which is at the heart of his doctrine, and prophetic tradition, which is at the heart of his writing and oratory style. He is being recreated as an anti-white, anti-American crackpot.
Conspiracy theorists do the same thing. Check out this video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2357448098911229950
Yeah, these people seem kind of nutty in stringing together all of these unrelated symbols and events, and building it into a code for a vast conspiracy. But this is the kind of crap that was roiling through Timothy McVey's mind when he bombed the Oklahoma City federal building.
I guess I'm just big on context, and on reality checks every now and then.
I thought your insights were fantastic!! I never really looked at it from the "rape" and "hell" point of view but U hit upon a mroe spiritual story. I didn't like how the record company reedited the CD and took out certain tracks. I thought it took away from the whoel beauty and continuity of the CD. It does remin my favorite Tori Amos disc. We're definately hanging out at the next N.C. Tori show! My fellow EarsWithFeet and friends would love U!
Thanks Aveallan! Having fully re-examined it, it certainly does appear to have far too many connections to simply be a coincidence. And I want to thank you for inspiring me to make that intellectual search, to begin with, and for asking for this post.
By the way,what did you think about the Rape and Hell concept, to go along with it?
Steve B.
There's just way too much cohensiveness and connections with all the songs for me to believe it was my "imagination" that noticed this "concept" years ago. I think it wasn't brought out due 2 the way some might have viewed a concept album so early in her solo career.. but looking at all of her recent "conceptual" outings, I don't think this is mere coincidence.
Cindy:
Here is a follow-up response, after reading your's a 2nd time.
Of course I fully recognize this could be mistaken. I do believe she writes on such a multi-dimensional level, that she probably has numerous themes going on, plus this overall concept theme, that we may not even be aware of.
Your response almost seemed as if you may have taken a slight bit of offense to it. Of course, I did not mean to offend anyone. I was simply putting that out there for intellectual discussion; and certainly was not attempting to claim, I or anyone else, has a lock on the correct interpretation.
You may be right that I am giving Tori too much credit. However, I certainly think Tori possesses both the intellectual fire-power, and imagination to have interwoven a hidden mystery in that CD, for her fans to discover over time. On the other hand, It could, as you suggest simply be my over-fertile imagination. Although I certainly do not possess the same level of Genius or Imagination as Tori.
Child Prodigies are rare; and Tori - being the youngest person in History to ever get admitted into the Peabody Conservatory of Music- at the age of Five Years Old (Youngest In History); clearly qualifies as a Child Prodigy. I have always loved and admired Tori Amos for her Genius; along with the brilliant, and very cryptic, lyrics contained in her songs.
In you knew my Job, you would definitely know I do not have too much time on my hands. Interpreting songs is something I have done naturally, all my life. (I actually have a memory of 100% of the Lyrics to over 10,000 Songs, plus 80-90% of the lyrics to an additional 20,000 songs.) I also have,in my mind, an interpretation for each one of them - OF COURSE, ALWAYS RECOGNIZING THE POSSIBILITY THOSE INTERPRETATIONS COULD BE WRONG.
I do not put a great deal of time into trying to memorize lyrics or interpret them, believe it ort not. Ususally, when I am driving, any time I first hear a new song on the radio, even today, I will generally catch most of the lyrics. By the time I hear it again, i will have 100% of the lyrics locked in my mind, along with an interpretation of what i think it is about. I will be 56 Years Old In August of This Year, and I have been doing this, since since I was ten.
My other great hobby is reading. I have read over 6000 Books in my lifetime, and also have thousands of quotes floating around in my head from various passages contained in them as well.
With only a couple of exceptions, every interpretation of a Tori song that I have put out on this site, as a Post, HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE RESULT OF SOMEONE REQUESTING IT FROM ME; including this one, on BFP. I always felt honored, and a little humbled by the fact that someone would think enough of me to ask for that.
I will categorically state that AT NO TIME WAS I SIMPLY ATTEMPTING TO PUT OUT "SPIN.' I was sincrerely attempting to provide some insight into something I felt existed in this Masterpiece of Tori's.
However, if someone is going to get offended, which is definitely not my intention, perhaps I should discontinue doing that in the future.
Steve B.
Thank you Cindy for your feedback. Even if it was a bit emotional!
Steve B.
Alright - maybe I'm just not getting what you are getting at with the term "interpretation." Are you saying that when Tori wrote Pele, she wrote it about a murder and trial? Or is that what it conjures in your imagination - is that the spin you put on it?
If it's the former, you are asking us to accept a bigger leap of faith than believing a literal interpretation of the Bible. Sure, Tori's lyrics are often metaphorical, but she's given plenty of explanations for these songs. And Lord knows she loves to talk about the themes of her albums, and I can't recall her ever mentioning Pele adding up to a story on murder and court.
If it's the latter, congratulations - you've got a more vivid imagination than the woman herself. Or too much time on your hands
Bump Up to keep it with part-2.
Steve B.
It's ok bush, don't worry! I just wanted to correct you before you referred to me as a man again. I might start to have gender issues otherwise lol!!
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Sorry about the Gender change Cloudonmytongue. MYcloud, which is simmilar to your screen name is a male; and I subconsciously made a similar association. If I were a Doctor, I could have made the joke that I was merely trying instill a subliminal message to entice you to utilize my services for a sex change operation! (LOL)
Steve B.
Oh by the way bush, I'm a woman!
Bump up. To keep in sequence with Part-2.
Steve B.
premature bumping violation.
Now I must bump again to keep the posts in order.
Leave it to a fairy for Miff up the easiest of things
*efg*
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if you know me so well tell me which hand I use
bump
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if you know me so well tell me which hand I use
I AGREE Lillytoo!!!!
I know when I'm outclassed! Compared to her, my little brain, would be tantamont to what an old Rock Group Called "Adam Ant" once said in a Song entitled, "Room At The Top."
Quote: "An 18th Century Brain in a Twenty-First Century Head." (LOL)
Your Friend- Steve B.
Hello Bush411...I just know one thing for certain, I wouldn't want to cross Tori Amos. LOL!!!
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"Last time I checked he came to light the lamp for everyone" Marys of the Seas
Hello Lillytoo!
Very interesting stuff. Tori is so multi-faceted that it is entirely possible she did write "Professional Widow" about Courtney love; WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY INTERWEAVING INTO IT, ANOTHER PURPOSE AS WELL. I have found that most of Tori's songs are written on anywhere from 2-10 dimensions. Thus, she could very easily have numerous purposes for her material.
Therefore, the Individual song could easily be about Courtney Love, while also having it stand as a piece to a larger puzzle as well. The same would be true about the rest of her songs. Although her denial of this song being about Courtney Love, would seem to severely weaken that theory. However, it is also possible that after writing it, she decided it was best not to reveal that part of it's nature.
That's what I love about Tori. She is such a Genius, that her mind branches off in many directions at the same time. Thus, one might see, correctly, one facet of her song, while another might also see, correctly again, a totally different facet. In those circumstances, I am inclined to think both points of view are most likely correct!
Your Friend-Steve B.
Hello Bush411...I was reading in the Jacobs' Biography ,"Pretty Good Years," that the song 'Professional Widow,' was written about Courtney Love. Apparently, Ms. Love interfered with Ms. Amos' relationship with Trent Reznor. Later, Love would boast about it in an interview, she wouldn't identify the woman other than being an Altnative Rocker, that Reznor changed the locks on his house to keep her out while, Ms. Love was in. So according to Jacobs, most believe Amos wrote the song about Courtney Love. Whenever asked about it, Amos denies this. The lyric "Don't blow those brains out yet, we are gonna be big boy." It certainly sounds like the unfortunate demise of Love's late husband, Kurt Cobain. Who knows the truth? I'm just adding what I had read about the song in a Biography. Peace...
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"Last time I checked he came to light the lamp for everyone" Marys of the Seas
You have great taste Penny Dreadful. BFP is, in my judgment, AN AMAZING DEMONSTRATION OF PURE GENIUS!!!!!
Steve B.
You're most welcome - reading your post was my pleasure. BFP is my favourite artistic work of all time and I feel duty bound to ensure any representation from it is accurate!
Thank you Penny Dreadful. It was a typo. When you're writing that much, and trying to concentrate on connecting up so many songs to a central theme, it easy to make a typing error. (At least I hope that's a good excuse! Ha Ha) I will go into The "edit" box, and try to correct it.
Thanks for the feedback. And especially, thanks for Reading it!!!
Steve B.
hey Bush411, i was interested to read your theories on BFP but feel obliged to point out that you actually misquoted the line in Talula - it's actually "ran into the henchman who SEVERED Ann Boleyn" and not SERVED as you quote......sorry to be pedantic but facts are facts!
I would also ask that everyone not only look at the Response from "cloudonmytongue" and my response to him - but also examine the Response from "Aveallen" at the bootom of this thread.
Steve B.
I would also direct people to the Response from "Cloudonmytounge" and My Response to him, in Part-2.
Steve B.
After reading the above, please go directly to Part-2.
Steve B.
I knew it! Finally more fans R getting on board 2 this but I could never figure out Y there is never any mention of it. Only this "Pele Goddess" explaination and her different parts which never made much sense 2 me. I always saw the southern murder story.
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