Thursday, May 8, 2008 - 07:20
The Diva Factor
I was ill (so very ill) and at home watching ET - one of their specials was Oprah, Tina and Cher. And they were asking if other members of the music industry had had a hit in every decade they were famous - the divas in question made it to 40 years. With the fact that neither of these women seem to be aging particularly gracefully, and the fact that Cher seems to rely on synthesising her voice to make it pitch perfect, does anyone seem to care that there are other musicians who have a much more solid body of good music and have retained their credibility without desperately latching on to their long lost youth by reconstructing their faces every five years? Madonna is clearly another example. She's readjusted herself to fit patterns and trends in order fit to the current music scene but I dont want to see her in a leotard when she's in her 60s.
I had to think about tori and I was still sitting there afterwards going "whatever" 50 years and a hit every decade isn't worth boasting about if you weren't striving to continue to retain a sense of dignity. Tori's at least followed her gut when it came to her reinventions. Who thinks tori will still be making music in her 50s and 60s? I love to think she'll still be crooning behind her piano. I'd still go to her shows.
Replies for this Forum Topic
When it comes to Diva by definition, it's someone who has paid her dues, worked very hard to get where she is at, and has perservered. I think Amos is almost there, but still a bit too young. (Although the sequined jump suits, the shoes, and bouncing annoying fans is certainly scoring Diva points). For me Diva's are Patti LaBelle, Chaka Khan, Bette Midler, Tina Turner, Diane Ross, Celine Dion and of course Cher. They are entertainers, show women, performers, with all the costume changes, gowns and glitz. In addition, any man who wears the drag of any of the above mentioned Diva's, is also Diva. LOL!!! Mary J. Blige, Whitney Houston, Mariah Carey, Beyounce,and Madonna are all too young. Pumps and Peace...
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"Last time I checked he came to light the lamp for everyone" Marys of the Seas
Well said Raz.
I also think it is more about the music for her than "being famous". Don't get me wrong, she is a performer (a damn good one), but I think she performs because of the music, not making music in order to perform.
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Cher going plastic/elastic, Jagger jumping jack flash at 60, Keith Richards dropping from tropical trees, otherwise lovely Dolly Parton trying to maintain her 30something dollf appearance, Wayne Newton the same and so on..
It appears to be rather hard for a person who has been on the spot for so many years to accept the course time has on him/her. I don't think i can blame those people but when i witness something like that it can be pathetic and sad. I recognize the insecurity that perhaps lies beneath that choice but I welcome maturity and change. And by that I don't mean ending up singing boring songs. But evolving as an artist. Experimenting with singing and sounds that do maintain the reason people love them for (voice, lyrics or composing) but in a more evolving way. You can't expect a 65 year old doin' it Beyonce style!
An example would be Robert Plant's collaboration with A. Kraus. And Alisson Moyet's jazzy singing or Nancy Sinatra's 2004 album.
As far Madonna is concerned, everyone concurs to the fact that most of her appeal was and still is based in the show/visual aspect of hers rather than her voice. Surely she has some music gems. But she does not depend on her voice or musical virtuosity to sell or to attract admiration. Her lifestyle, her fashion choices, her provocative concerts were the biggest part of her appeal.
She is a smart businesswoman. She knows how to team up with pop sensations (be it kissing britney and christina, singing with Justin) and taking advantage of trends (be it free running in her shows, or masstige as a fashion trend by teaming up with H+M).
But after listening to her last 2 albums (confessions and hard candy) i can't say that her music evolves. And clearly her body is in perfect shape but how much can that make people interested in you?
Tori has never been a part of the mass. She has never bothered about being liked or following trends bla bla bla. At least that is the impression i get. When she was younger ( i still think a woman at 44 is very young!) she gave me the impression that she could not care less about if her looks were fashionable. She had a style of her own. Her jeans and swimsuits. Her red hair. Her luscious lips.
And God knows especially during 1998-99 and after having Tash she was so sexy and she still is! Sexy but not to be laughed at. She doesn't need to leave a boob out to attract attention. Her aura works for her.
And she is the DIVAesque of them all. Why? Cause she always did and always does her thing without compromising or following marketing trends. IF part of being a diva is to get things done your way, then i'd say she always drinks nectar!
I have always lived my life by a rule, that no one should ever allow others to psychologically control them. I can well remember during my HS, College, and Military days, and even later in a Managerial Enviroment; where others would always form clicks (In-groups) etc.., that most others always desired to be a part of. (Believe it or not, I never felt that.)
At any rate, there were numerous occassions where everyone would think you should dress a certain way, act a certain way, smoke, drink, party, etc... I NEVER DID FEEL A NEED, NOR DID I EVER SUCCUMB TO ANY PRESSURE TO FOLLOW SUIT. I believe each person should have and use a mind of their own; as opposed to jumping on the Bandwagon of so-called popular Opinion.
Therefore, I would not agree that one should stop performing, simply because of their Age. One should, however, always acknowledge certain realities. For example, if the Rolling Stones would suddenly cease to draw huge crowds, that would then surely be a sign it is time to quit. However, inasmuch as he is still drawing huge crowds, and making an average of 100+ Million a Year, why on earth would he be concerned about someone harboring a negative opinion about his doing that at his age. Obviously, he wouldn't; Nor should he.
Each person simply has to decide for him or herself when they should stop performing - and not be influenced by others who might comment they are too old.
I can recall, when I was twenty how totally inconcievable it was that I would ever reach the Age of 50. Now I am 56, and am absolutely amazed at just how fast that age has sprung up on me. I often find myself thinking back to a course I once took in Psychology as a Freshman in College. Our professor, decided to engage the class in a discussion on the topic of aging. He began by asking his students to explain why time seems to go faster as you get older. All of us were giving the usual answers; such as: you have more responsiblities, work, raising a family, etc...The Professor proceeded to acknowledge there was some degree of truth in that, but then went on to explain as follows:
When you are 5-years old, one year is a 5th of your life. Thus, a year has the effect of seeming to be a very long time. When you become 10, it is now only a 10th of your life. Fast forwarding to 40, a year has now only become a 40th of your life. Thus, as your memory and experience of Life get longer, each succeeding year becomes an ever smaller fraction of your total memory of life. Therefore, psychologically, time continues to move at an ever accelerating pace, with each advancing year."
At first I saw this as nothing more than a clever attempt to take a fixed and unchanging measurement of time (One Year), and make it appear to have a shrinking quality - when in fact, a year is always a year.
Today, as I look back on that, I now see the reality of it. (while the measurement of a year is certainly constant - 365-Days or 366-Leap) - it is simply incredible to me how much faster each succeding year appears to go by. The human mind is simply too fluid, to be constrained by such a fixed measurement. Fully internalizing that, however, definitely took place by growing (Mentally) with the passage of time.
Of course, as I now fully recognize the above as being an undeniable truth, it also makes me come to grips with the reality that my sojourn on this earth, will unfortunately cease, in a very short space of time. This becomes especially true, when one takes the average life expectancy, and subtract ing ones current age, then taking the remaining years and using the incredible multiplier effect as articulated by my Former professor.
Pondering these "Old versus Young" concepts serves to also remind me of the lyrics of a song by Bob Dylan, entitled "When You Gonna Wake Up" An excerpt of those lyrics are provided below:
"You've got innocent men in Jail, your insane asylums are filled.
You've got unrighteous Doctors, giving you pills that will never cure your ills.
Adulterers in Churches and pornography in the schools.
You've got Gansters in power, and lawbreakers making the rules.
You've got men who can't hold their peace, and women who can't control their tongue.
The Rich seduce the poor, AND THE OLD ARE SEDUCED BY THE YOUNG.
When you gonna wake up?"
I have always found those lines to be very intriguing.
Steve B
I hope with the Doll thing she got the sexed up aspect of herself out of her system in terms of performing. It was great, but when she does play live again she'll probably be in her upper 40s, and I think similar overtness would be a bit much. A little piano bench humping would be fine, though.
It's really pathetic to see old Mick Jagger prancing around as if he were still 20-something. And Cher is just a joke. I would hate to see Tori become the same thing. I think she's too smart to let that happen.
I agree, I think as a musician and songwriter (which are ways she differs from the others listed), she will always create music. Whether she performs publicly, records, or keeps that music private will probably be the thing.
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I'm pretty sure Tori will always keep on making music (I heard her mention that in an interview).. However, she's not going to tour around forever - from what she explained to her fans during the ADP tour, this was her last world tour ever (buhuu!!)
She said that she didn't want to go on stage when being 'so old' (Tori is not at all old); still, I do understand her... It takes lots of energy to go on stage every night for such a long period..
And I honestly don't think I could live without her music - new as old 
However, I'm glad about the fact that Tori might always make music. I honestly don't think she can stop - even if she tried
Love, AH
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"Excuse me, but can I be you for a while? My dog won't bite if you sit real still"